| Author | Message | ||
| John Paine
|
I purchased a French 49/56 several years ago just after the market became flooded with the 7.5 caliber. It just so happened that I was in the process of the book work to see if a possible conversion to 308 was possible then they were made avail. before I could finish. My reloading data made referances that if reloading 7.5 to use 7.62 bullet in place of 7.5 to compensate fo bore ware of surplus rifles. This started the wheels turning, if my memory serves me - the French cartridgee is 7.5X54 with close dimminsions of brass OD. Compare to 308 nato of 7.62X51. My rifle came and during tests on the range with Ammo from India, UK, LC, Commersial US, Portug., and chinese I found that it realllly hated some of it! It has a nasty habbit of pulling the rim off the case during extraction and leaving the empty corpse in the chamber. I Cannot find the actual military pressure this rifle was designed for but have an idea it is around 21,000 COP. Sammi specs for 308 nato are around 51,000 military and can be as high as 66,000 in some commercial brands. The 49/56 has no adjustment for gas pressure so I decided to try to vent some of the pressure off by drilling a very small hole in the top block just before where the gas enters the gas tube and to not obstruct the factory gas shut off for gren. launcher. Testing all ammo as I went I slowly saw improvements in many differant brands until I went 1 size to Large while trying to satisfy for all brands. Now I had A rifle that short cycled on All brands. I tapped the correct size hole for a 4x40 thread and decided if I could not vent excess pres. maybe it could be choked instead. After threading in a hardened (a must) screw I repeated the test until the rifle started to short cycle agaig. Running the screw back in about 20 thous. I would continue the test and shorten the screw by removing and disk sander in 5000 increments each time it tore the rim off fired case. I finally hit just the right length to cure rifle of nasty habbit. I also installed a 30,000 shim under extractor to improve the quality of fired cases for reloadig (moving extractor to thr rear thus enabling extractor to effectively grip rim). Shoots like a dream now and I am glad I did not have to sell at a discount or at all. This rifle handles the recoil from the 308 cart. better than many others I have fired. If anyone reading this has had sim. problems and easier fix's please spread the wealth, thanks for the audience. | ||
| Adam Firestone
|
That sounds like a lot of work. Phew! The things that worry me are the shape of the 49/56 chamber, which is wider in diameter, IIRC than the 7.62mm NATO chamber, the larger diameter of the 7.5x54mm rim, and th 10Kpsi to 12Kpsi chamber pressure difference between the 7.62mm NATO and the 7.5x54mm. The first is a worry because the brass will stretch more, have a much shorter service life, and raise the potential for catastrophic case failure. There is also the potential issue of the case not gripping the walls of the chamber securely enough upon firing expansion. The second you may have solved by shimming the extractor. But there is still potential for the case head to "move around,"no? Finally, IIRC, the French opted to NOT use the 7.62mm NATO in the 49 and 49/56 precisely because of the pressure issues - the rifles became loose and unsafe. While I'm not trying to discount the efficacy of your efforts, I would suggest caution and frequent inspection to make sure you're safe. Have you checked the headspace recently? Best, Adam | ||
| John Paine
|
I have not checked it since delivery, however I did compare a fired hull to one fired from a 308 bolt action using a mic and they apear to be identicle. The sheer massiveness of the 49/56 reciever and it's components (hammer resembles a framming hammer) seem to handle the recoil and pressure well.Aside from shade tree inspections I cant be sure the reciever is not stretching.This rifle is a rather difficult one to find specs. for, I have a web address somewhere for a "308" extractor offered for this rifle, however I suspect it is probably the same one as mine.I have probably ran 800 rounds thru this rifle (total) by this posting and see no visible damage. I am going to pull it spart this next week and parkerise it, I will give it a good go thruogh. Off hand at 100 yards it is capable of 3" groups, not bad factoring in that the front post is as massive as its hammer and a carbine also. Thanks for the imput! | ||
| Adam Firestone (Cruffler)
Ink's Still Wet on My License! Username: Cruffler Post Number: 1 Registered: 4-2002 |
John, you seem very adept at shade tree gunsmithing. May I suggest that you contact Clymer Manufacturing (http://www.clymertool.com) and purchase a set of .308 Winchester headspace gauges? The cost will be well worth the peace of mind you get. Best, Adam | ||
| j w mathews (Jwmathews) Ink's Still Wet on My License! Username: Jwmathews Post Number: 1 Registered: 5-2002 |
It is my understanding, from having handled a few French riflres in both chamberings, that the .308 versions have had the rear of the barrel faced off about 1/4 inch or so and rethreaded. Then when a .308 reamer is run into the chamber, the dimensions become closer to standard for that case and eliminate the tendency to over-expand the rear of the case/rip off rims, etc. The .308 may be a bit higher pressure than the original 7.5 French, but those rifles are very heavily built--the importers would not be doing these conversions if they were unsafe. Another point not mentioned in the earlier posts: The "7.5" designation refers to BORE diameter, not groove. The 7.5mm = .30 caliber, that is .300 inch, so .308 (groove diameter) bullets are exactly correct if one reloads the 7.5 French cases. I hope the above info is of use. J W Mathews | ||
| Adam Firestone (Cruffler)
There's still space on my credit card. Username: Cruffler Post Number: 30 Registered: 4-2002 |
Thanks JW! The only thing I disagree with is the idea is that the importers would not do or sell something if it were unsafe. . . .they do that ALL the time. . .between you and I, I'll trust my safety to the numbers, not the importers - their concern is their bottom line, not my health! Adam Adam C. Firestone Editor-in-Chief CRUFFLER.COM http://www.cruffler.com | ||
| j w mathews (Jwmathews) Ink's Still Wet on My License! Username: Jwmathews Post Number: 2 Registered: 5-2002 |
One point, Adam: There is a difference between selling a used or surplus gun "as is" in its original configuration, and selling something else. Surplus arms are normally sold "as is" based on the seller's descriptions. If the condition is not "as advertised" the buyer has or should have the option to return it for refund. (Most firms do this; those that don't aren't likely to last very long as the word gets around.) And, most firms send a notice along with the firearm advising the buyer to have it checked by a competent gunsmith before shooting. However, when an importer MODIFIES a surplus rifle, as in setting back the barrels and rechambering to a different cartridge, the importer is, as a practical matter, manufacturing" a firearm. As such, imo they could be held legally liable in a civil suit for damages if such firearm was to blow up (with factory ammo, that is). I do not think they would undertake that responsibility if it was unsafe. In trusting your safety to the numbers, have you received any reports of the .308 French rifles blowing up? (My own rifle is in 7.5 caliber & I see no need to have it rechambered as I have a sufficient supply of the 7.5 ammo imported several years ago with Arabic lettering on the boxes. I'm guessing from Egypt or perhaps Syria.) No disagreement on my part that importers are in the business to make money, that's true of all businesses--but they are responsible in some ways for some things, I believe. No offense intended or taken, Adam--I just ewanted to explain my reasoning. Thanx. jwm | ||
| Adam Firestone (Cruffler)
There's still space on my credit card. Username: Cruffler Post Number: 31 Registered: 4-2002 |
I agree that they ARE responsible, but whether they act responsibly is another matter. Once upon a time I was privy to some "business calculus." You take the likelihood of user injury, multiply that by the likelihood that injured users would sue, and there's your likelihood of litigation. Then you multiply this on the likelihood you can blame the user and/or that you will escape blame, and if the number is low enough, you go ahead with production. Alternatively, if your profits will be high enough to offset any foreseeable lawsuit, you also go ahead. I just don't think they act responsibly. Remember the brand new /b{ALUMINUM} FAL receivers a few months ago? No offense taken! Vigorous conversation is the soul of these boards! Best, Adam Adam C. Firestone Editor-in-Chief CRUFFLER.COM http://www.cruffler.com | ||
| Adam Firestone (Cruffler)
There's still space on my credit card. Username: Cruffler Post Number: 32 Registered: 4-2002 |
I agree that they ARE responsible, but whether they act responsibly is another matter. Once upon a time I was privy to some "business calculus." You take the likelihood of user injury, multiply that by the likelihood that injured users would sue, and there's your likelihood of litigation. Then you multiply this on the likelihood you can blame the user and/or that you will escape blame, and if the number is low enough, you go ahead with production. Alternatively, if your profits will be high enough to offset any foreseeable lawsuit, you also go ahead. I just don't think they act responsibly. Remember the brand new *ALUMINUM* FAL receivers a few months ago? No offense taken! Vigorous conversation is the soul of these boards! Best, Adam Adam C. Firestone Editor-in-Chief CRUFFLER.COM http://www.cruffler.com | ||
| John Paine (John_paine)
Ink's Still Wet on My License! Username: John_paine Post Number: 1 Registered: 5-2002 |
Adam, I took your advice and had the rifle headspacing checked. Closed fine using the GO gauge and would not close on the NOGo gauge. Gunsmith gave thumbs up on headspace and on the gas system restriction screw I installed. I also just read a good article on this problem at the JPFO web site - check it out. By the way, I just finished re-parkerizing the MAS, looks unissued now. Thanks. | ||
| Adam Firestone (Cruffler)
There's still space on my credit card. Username: Cruffler Post Number: 35 Registered: 4-2002 |
Can you post some photos of your "baby?" Adam C. Firestone Editor-in-Chief CRUFFLER.COM http://www.cruffler.com | ||
| John_paine
Ink's Still Wet on My License! Username: John_paine Post Number: 2 Registered: 5-2002 |
I would love to, however I do not have digital camera or scanner yet. New note - just picked up a VG+ M44, cleaned 45 years cosmoline out of it, had headspacing checked, blasted. Disinigrated 2" rocks @ 100+ yards. I am amazed @ the accuracy of this little rifle. I was concerned when I saw no windage or elevation adj. Heck, it doesn't need any--- dead on! Only 60 dollar bill to boot, think I'll have to look into a 91/30. | ||
| Cruffler
There's still space on my credit card. Username: Cruffler Post Number: 46 Registered: 4-2002 |
Mosin-Nagants are some of the best kept secrets in the military rifle world. . . . Adam C. Firestone Editor-in-Chief CRUFFLER.COM http://www.cruffler.com | ||
| Doug_t
Ink's Still Wet on My License! Username: Doug_t Post Number: 10 Registered: 4-2002 |
Shhh! I haven't bought as many as I want yet! Especially don't tell him about M39s! ;) Seriously John, Cruffler is soooo right. Mosin Nagants are a way under appreciated family of weapons and present a great value. There's really nothing else to compare to the success of the basic design. How many other weapons can claim that ANY rifle's bolt, no matter the version, will exchange with ANY other's, carbine, rifle, sniper? A 91/30 is a great addition to the gun safe, if only to have a representative of maybe the single most issued rifle model of WWII, plus they can shoot pretty well. Check into the Finnish versions too as they have a great story behind them and made what are generally considered to be the finest shooting examples. If you're interested in these neat old rifles, I'd highly recommend looking into the M39 Finnish models. "The price of liberty is eternal vigilance." Thos. Jefferson | ||
| John_paine
Ink's Still Wet on My License! Username: John_paine Post Number: 5 Registered: 5-2002 |
Doug T: Today I started looking @ local shops For a 91/30, however most of these apeared to have seen serios war time duty. I will look on the net somemore @ both the 39 and the 91/30. Any way to modify the safety to reduce the amount of tension to set, so a youth could manipulate, and will the cart. feed in correctly using a stripper? Noticed that attention required while loading to make sure rims in correct sequence. God bless the SECOND! | ||
| Doug_t
Ink's Still Wet on My License! Username: Doug_t Post Number: 12 Registered: 4-2002 |
John, I'm going to answer this in the Russian/Soviet category. We've digressed pretty far from French Surplus.  "The price of liberty is eternal vigilance." Thos. Jefferson |