| Author |
Message |
Recycledelectro
Ink's Still Wet on My License!
Username: Recycledelectro
Post Number: 3
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, June 23, 2002 - 6:01 am: | |
I'm new to bolt-actions, and am looking to get into them cheap.
I do not want to stray from military calibers (.30-06, .308, 7.62x39, .223.)
What is my best option?
I was looking at the cheapo $39.95 Turkish Mausers (from many sources) along with some new close-out $60-$65 barrels in military calibers from MidwayUSA.
Is there a reason that this is a bad idea?
Do Mauser barrels screw in, or press in?
What would I have to do to change the caliber other than a new barrel / bolt?
Where do I get the right bolt?
I've seen detachable mags for Mausers;what versions of Mausers accept the detachable mags?
Does anyone make folding stocks that are any good?
What are some good sources for Mauser-rebuilding parts / information?
Thanks!
Andy Out |
Cruffler
Victim of Crufflestopheles
Username: Cruffler
Post Number: 59
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, June 23, 2002 - 9:20 am: | |
Hi Andy,
Let's see if I can help you here. To begin with, .308 was never a military caliber. 7.62mm NATO is a military caliber, but the two are very different animals and should not be confused or interchanged.
That being said, you're going to have to redefine what you consider "military calibers" if you want to get into military bolt action rifles, since most of them are chambered for classic calibers. By far the most available and least expensive rifles will be chambered for:
7.62x54mmR
7.92x57mm Mauser
.303 British
You will also find a good supply of rifles chambered for 7.65mm Mauser, some in 7mm Mauser, and some in 8x56mmR Mannlicher. US bolt rifles will be in .30-40 Krag and .30-06, but neither will be anything remotely approaching cheap.
Since you limited your scope to Mausers, that eliminates the inexpensive Mosin-Nagants in 7.62x54mmR and the Enfields in .303 British. Your best bet for an inexpensive bolt action Mauser then will be chambered in 7.92mm Mauser.
Mauser barrels screw in and rebarreling will cost you a pretty penny and is always a dicey option. You don't know if the receiver ring will be damaged during the process, and headspacing may be an issue. In short conversions, IMHO, are NEVER a good idea.
This is doubly true as decent surplus 7.92mm ammunition is available for as little as $0.06 per round, and very nice 7.92mm rifles can be had for prices ranging from $60 to $200, which is still less than you'll pay for a rifle, a barrel and the rebarreling service.
Look for some of the Yugoslav M24/47 or M48 rifles as those are very good entry level shooters. You can also find original K98k German service rifles. These will be more worn, especially at the lower price end, but if they headspace correctly, and have decent bores, they should shoot well. Turkish rifles may be good bargains as well.
You also should buy yourself a set of 7.92mm Mauser headspace gauges - they are an essential part of determining whether a surplus rifle is safe to shoot and we can just about guarantee that the importers do NOT check headspace when they get the rifles in. I am partial to Clymer gauges, http://www.clymertool.com .
If you do change the caliber, and you go for one that has a different size case head than the original, you're looking at 1) a difficult search for a bolt that will work and 2) a pricey proposition.
Mausers typically do NOT take detchaable mags. There were semi-permanent "trench mags" and reproductions made, but these do not detach, and they replace the magazine floorplate.
There are no folding stocks for Mausers that I am aware of.
Sounds like what you really want is an AK.
Have a nice day.
Adam
Adam C. Firestone
Editor-in-Chief
CRUFFLER.COM
http://www.cruffler.com |
Recycledelectro
Ink's Still Wet on My License!
Username: Recycledelectro
Post Number: 4
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, June 23, 2002 - 10:20 am: | |
First, thanks for the response!
Yes, I love AKs, but what I'm looking for here is a scout / hunting rifle. I believe every gun has its purpose, and an AK's purpose is not taking a game. An FAL is too heavy to lug through the field. The reasons that I am going with a bolt action are to save weight, a lack of regulations (SAW ban, parts count, etc.), and to save money.
I am looking for standard "modern" military calibers, because that is what I reload for currently (I've almost decided on .308) A new set of reloading tools will cost more than the added cost of getting a rifle in a "modern" military caliber. Also, with my love of military rifles, a .308 "scout" rifle would be less trouble to take to the range than a less modern military cartridge.
I'm sorry if I implied a Mauser-specific interest, I have just seen a lot of accessories and parts for them.
I've seen .308 Spanish small-ring Mausers for about $120. If I buy one of those "scout" stocks $80, and put a 2x red dot scope on it, what should I know? I am approaching the cost of an FAL here.
Finally, what's the difference in 7.62 NATO, and .308 Winchester? I have heard something about pressure differences. I have also read that some C&R rifles are 7.62 CETME, a much lower pressure cartridge with similar dimensions.
Thanks!
Andy Out |
Tom_beatley
Ink's Still Wet on My License!
Username: Tom_beatley
Post Number: 4
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, June 23, 2002 - 3:09 pm: | |
Why not have the best of two worlds? I still see on the market Israeli Mauser 98K's that have been rebarreled for 7.62 NATO. In fact I have one;good shooter....cheers |
Cruffler
Victim of Crufflestopheles
Username: Cruffler
Post Number: 60
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Monday, June 24, 2002 - 9:43 am: | |
To begin with, the Spanish Mausers in question, the M1916's, are rechambered for the 7.62x51mm CETME, which tossed a 113 grain bullet at 2493 fps, around 38 - 41000 psi. The max pressure on the 7.62mm NATO is between 50-52000 psi. The max on .308 Winchester is som 66,000 psi. See the differences, and hopefully, the dangers in mixing these cartridges in rifles not designed for them.
Your best bet might be to expand your reloading regimen. I think that you might be very satisfied with a Mosin-Nagant M44 carbine in 7.62x54mmR. They are accurate, rugged, fire a cartridge in the .30-06 power class, and can be had for less than $100.
Take care
Adam
Adam C. Firestone
Editor-in-Chief
CRUFFLER.COM
http://www.cruffler.com |
Recycledelectro
Ink's Still Wet on My License!
Username: Recycledelectro
Post Number: 5
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Monday, June 24, 2002 - 11:10 am: | |
Thanks! You guys have been a tremendous help!
I have been hesitating, because when I purchase a set of reloading dies ($30), plus brass ($50), plus a new turret for my press ($12), plus a cartrige gauge ($19), plus a no-go headspacing gauge ($19), special size bullets ($30), a new powder ($23), etc, etc, etc -- well; it just gets expensive. That's $173, and I never get out of a project for less than 3 times what I estimated. I dislike spending $519 to feed a $39 rifle. If I stick to a small list of callibers, then I can always reuse my investment on my other rifles. I can even look forward to one day having everything I need for these firearms.
I've about decided to add one C&R cartridge to my collection. (dang-it)
I'll have to decide whether I want to go 7.62x54R, 8mm Mauser, .303 British, or some other cartridge. It's time to compare reloading manuals. I might then order one of each (given their unbelievably cheap prices) just to see what I want to go with.
Andy Out.
Andy Out |
Cruffler
Victim of Crufflestopheles
Username: Cruffler
Post Number: 61
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Monday, June 24, 2002 - 12:35 pm: | |
It's a tough call, especially as most of the surplus ammo is Berdan primed. In terms of raw power, you'll get more mileage out of the 7.92x57mm and 7.62x54mmR than the .303 British. The Mauser bolts are significantly smoother than the Mosin bolts, but in the long run I don't think that will matter. . . .
Take care,
Adam
Adam C. Firestone
Editor-in-Chief
CRUFFLER.COM
http://www.cruffler.com |
Recycledelectro
Ink's Still Wet on My License!
Username: Recycledelectro
Post Number: 6
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Monday, June 24, 2002 - 11:12 pm: | |
I'm still deciding...
Option 1: Add a C&R caliber
Option 2: Get a (.308 CETME) Spanish Mauser. I'm not too woried about the power, but I do want to reuse my reloading tools, and when I get headspace gauges, I want them to be reusable. Is the .308 CETME identical in dimensions to a .308 Win / 7.62 NATO? Can I reuse every reloading tool I have, or is this a poor practice?
Andy Out.
|
Recycledelectro
Ink's Still Wet on My License!
Username: Recycledelectro
Post Number: 7
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 1:27 am: | |
Thanks for helping me make my decision! I've decided.
Both 8mm Mausers and 7.62x54R Nagants had their advantages.
Nagant 7.62x54R Advantages:
-7.62x54R takes 0.311" dia. bullets (interchangable dia. with commie 7.62x39.)
-There is some AP 7.62x54R ammo out there.
Mauser 8mm Advantages:
-8mm Mausers are lighter weight.
-There are "Scout" stocks available for Mausers.
-There is that Spanish .308 Mauser, which would allow me to use my .308 handloading equipment, but would still allow me to interchange some parts between the Mausers in both calibers.
-8mm Ammo (30-06 power) is available for $0.06 per round! that's half the cost of 7.562x54R (I'll just buy a bunch while it's cheap, and forget about handloading)
-8mm brass can be formed from 30-06 brass, so I'll never be without.
I'm going to go with Mausers.
Andy Out. |
Cruffler
Victim of Crufflestopheles
Username: Cruffler
Post Number: 62
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 9:59 am: | |
Andy,
With respect to Mausers -
1) There's NO implication or even likelihood that you will be able to interchange parts between your Mausers. 8mm Mausers are of the "large ring" variety, while the M1916's converted to 7.62x51mm CETME are of the "small ring" variety.
2) In terms of pure energy, 7.62x54mmR and 8mm are roughly comparable, with the 7.62x54mmR probably holding the edge.
3) I'd buy a Yugo 8mm Mauser for starters and not worry about the reloading just yet - at 0.06 per round it's not cost effective.
4) I wouldn't shoot a converted M1916 if you paid me. I would, however, and have, shot, the FR-8 (NOT the FR-7) with 7.62mm NATO military ammunition - BUT NEVER .308 Winchester commercial amm.
Buy a nice 8mm. I think you'll be VERY happy.
Adam
Adam C. Firestone
Editor-in-Chief
CRUFFLER.COM
http://www.cruffler.com |
Jacobite
Ink's Still Wet on My License!
Username: Jacobite
Post Number: 2
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 28, 2004 - 10:06 am: | |
Given what you want to do I would buy a nice 8mm Mauser. Also you cause yourself alot of expense with your loading setup just to reload rifle calibers. Use a single stage press for rifle calibers. Then all you need is the dies and shell holder. I load thousands of 5.56 rounds for my AR and still just use a single stage press. I do use a powder measure instead of a scale to speed things up but always weigh each charge when loading hunting rounds. Igman makes a nice 8mm hunting round that is reloadable. I got 100 rounds for about $40 from ammunitionstore.com
Now if you want a unigue accurate rifle get a Swiss K-31 straight pull in 7.5x55 Swiss. Brass costs $35 per hundred from Graff and Sons or can be formed from .284 Winchester brass. It shoots a .308 diameter bullet. Scout mounts can be bought and these babys shoot. Bores are like new and the triggers are sweet. |
|